Girl on Demand Calling it Quits

I was saddened to read that the fabulous blog, POD-dy Mouth, Girl on Demand, has posted her last blog on POD books. I understand ALL of her reasons, but she really was doing a GREAT job in unearthing buried treasures in the mass of POD published works.

She writes:

Along with this, it is clear to see that POD (with a few exceptions) is a useful tool to gain some ground in the book world (hopefully to build an audience to more than your immediate family)--but only so that you can ultimately get an agent and publisher to produce/release your book (and others) in the traditional way. No one knows this more than I, for that was the sole purpose of the Needle Awards. However, it is simply not a compelling reason to stay up late every night.

And right there she says everything I believe about POD. Right now I can hear the Internet hallelujah chorus singing, "POD is JUST a technology." Yes, yes, I know this. And it's been hashed and rehashed, and dished out enough times that I am NOT going to go there again. But I am going to say this. Girl managed to find some pretty good gems in the mass amounts of works published using Print on Demand, and it had to be an exhausting job.

Kudos to her. Her blog will be missed.

Guest Blogger Kim Howe

Please note: Author Kim Howe is one of the finalists in the Dorchester American Title contest.


American Title Quest

Quest stories have stood the test of time. The Odyssey involves the search for Ithica, Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings is a classic quest tale where good triumphs over evil, and David Morrell’s upcoming novel Scavenger involves the pursuit of a hundred-year-old time capsule. These novels appeal to the universal theme that we are all searching for something—like love, success, happiness, or a mysterious scroll!

Most of us are on a quest in our daily lives—it could be something as simple as taking off those extra pounds we adopted during the holidays or as complicated as discovering our dreams. Quests are what drive us to get up in the morning, down enough caffeine to be productive, and launch into our tasks. In the last few months, I’ve been on a quest for the American Title, the literary equivalent of American Idol. My suspense novel, ONE SHOT, TWO KILLS, was chosen as one of ten finalists battling for the honor of becoming the American Title III winner.

Dorchester Publishing and Romantic Times BOOKReview Magazine teamed up to create a contest for unpublished writers. Each month, small sections of the finalists’ novels have been showcased and critiqued by three judges modeled on Paula, Randy, and the infamous Simon Cowell. And these comments can be rather, well—scathing. My sniper heroine Kenya Alexikova needed her flak jacket to ward off the hollow-tipped zingers aimed at ONE SHOT, TWO KILLS.

The contest encourages readers to support their favorite novel via e-mail votes. Each month, the two contestants with the lowest number of votes are eliminated from the contest until the winner collects a publishing contract from Dorchester. We’re down to the final four and the tension is mounting. Using her camouflage skills, Kenya has avoided a fatal blow so far, but she could sure use back-up (the dream team would include Rambo, Reacher, and Rain!).

ONE SHOT, TWO KILLS stemmed from a desire to do a twist on the Cain and Abel story. This time, brother and sister are pitted against each other. The book blurb could read:

One shot, one kill is the sniper motto. But when the time came to execute her orders, U.S. Army sniper Kenya Alexikova failed to fire. At first, the mission seemed routine—stalk and terminate a faceless predator, code-named Afanasi, a man who thrived in Russia’s underworld. When she stared through the scope, Kenya reeled from shock. The face in the crosshairs was her estranged brother’s and the hesitation cost her partner’s life. Discharged from the Army and suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, Kenya plunged into a self-imposed exile in St. Lucia. Three years later, the past comes calling in the form of CIA recruiter Jack Travis with a mission Kenya can’t refuse—after all, she’s on a quest for redemption.

I’m fortunate my personal story isn’t quite as dramatic as Kenya’s. Words have been my passion since I first read See Spot Run in nursery school. An eclectic education followed, as I was shuttled across Africa, the Middle East, Europe, and the Caribbean due to my father’s work. Books were my sanctuary, an escape from the pressure of being the new kid.

After graduating from University of Toronto with a Specialist Degree in Labor Management Relations, I tried the business world—but the creative pull to write was irresistible. I work as a medical writer, an excellent training ground for research and answers to countless Jeopardy questions. Determined to make my dream of becoming a novelist a reality, I pursued every writing course available. In fact, I’ve just graduated from Seton Hill University with Master’s Degree in Writing Popular Fiction. I’ve signed with agent Evan Marshall and I’m working hard to find a home in the publishing world. And that leads me back to my quest…the American Title III Contest.
Voting for the final four runs from January 22-February 4, so all friendly operatives are encouraged to drop by http://www.romantictimes.com/news_amtitle.php to cast your vote. If it’s more convenient for you, please just send an e-mail to webmaster@romantictimes.com with ONE SHOT, TWO KILLS in the subject line. I’d really appreciate your support!

As a fun aside, I’m doing a “Kill Me Off” draw this month. To be the lucky (???) winner, send me an e-mail through my website www.kjhowe.com including the phrase “Kill Me Off” and your name. At the end of this voting period, I’ll draw the name of the person whose namesake will meet an untimely demise in my next novel. And, no, you cannot nominate your boss or mother-in-law. 

The next round of the ATIII contest includes dialogue scenes and here is what my characters have to say about that!

Dialogue Scene:

“What are you after?” Kenya asked.
“I’m a psychologist with the CIA. My specialty is persuasion.” He winked, a smile tugging at the corners of his mouth. She could see he’d be good at his job.
Jack stroked the stubble shadowing his cheeks. “Your file states you spent seven years as an Army Intel sniper. Unusual occupation for a woman. What made you get into that field, anyway?”
“The glamour.”
“Very funny. What was it really like?”
“It was great. Food’s crap, pay’s lousy, and you’re surrounded by chauvinist jerks. What more could a girl ask for?” Her heart pulverized her ribs. Years of repressed emotion bubbled to the surface.
“Jeez, lady, you sure have an interesting take on Army life. Given your past, the job I’m offering would be a cakewalk. You have the deep diving expertise, and I just witnessed how well you can defend yourself.”
“What’s the job?”
Jack leaned toward her. “I need to retrieve the contents of a Russian satellite from the ocean floor.”
“Hasn’t anyone told you the Cold War is over?” she asked.
“Like I haven’t heard that one before. Look, there’s information inside the satellite we believe is crucial to national security.”
“So bring in the Navy,” she said. “With their equipment, they shouldn’t have any trouble recovering whatever you’re after.”
“My superiors don’t want this salvage on the books. When the analysts searched for a solution, your name popped up.”
“Well, unpop it,” she said, knowing deep down the danger tempted her. Like Sleeping Beauty awakened by a kiss, the serious action of the morning had aroused her desire to live on the edge. Maybe the opportunity to spar with Jack had something to do with it as well.


Natalie, thank you for inviting me to join The Readers Room. It has been an absolute pleasure.

Is a Bad Agent Better than No Agent?

When query after query to agents is returned with a “no thanks,” many writers become frustrated by the endless search for representation. Just getting someone to read your material seems an overwhelming task, which is why many writers settle for a less than ideal agent, only to find themselves in much worse shape than they were on their own.

Is a bad agent better than no agent?

“A bad agent is definitely worse than no agent at all,” said Cathy Yardly, author of The Driven Snow, a Harlequin Blaze romance, and the upcoming L.A. Woman, published in June, 2002, under Harlequin’s Red Dress Ink imprint. “Of course, my experience is with romance, primarily, where you don’t really need an agent, for category especially. But I have had a friend go through horror stories of signing with an agent who claimed to have an ‘in’ with a publishing house that my friend had a manuscript in with. Afterwards, it turned out that the publisher wasn’t even returning the agent’s calls! What’s worse, now that she’s signed, she is contractually obligated to give up a percentage of the profits should that book sell because of ‘work done on the author’s behalf on this project,’ even though she’s already fired that agent!”

Before signing any contracts, a writer should always research the credentials of an agent. This can be as easy as surfing over to my favorite search engine, Google (http://www.google.com) and typing in the agent’s name. For more on agents, see Jeff Kleinman's article this month.

Red flags to look for when researching a prospective agent include disputes with former clients, no verifiable track record of sales, and, believe it or not, your own correspondence with the agent in question. Emails returned full of typos and Web sites that are unprofessional tell you many things, but the most important message you are being sent is this “literary” agent is not very literate. How can they possibly represent you well?

“I’m a living, breathing testimonial to the fact that a bad agent can cause you sleepless nights, confusion, hand-wringing, horrible disappointment, and eye-twitching,” author Jerri Corgiat said. “My bad agent experience lasted only a few months, thank goodness, which is just a few weeks longer than it took me to raise holy heck with her agency and wiggle out of my contract after I’d discovered she’d, to put it politely, bent the truth. I’m sorry I won’t name names as she’s no longer employed there. And I do a Google search every once in a while to make sure she’s not lurking around conferences!”

I've heard from many, many writers who asked not to quoted, primarily because they were still locked in horrible contracts with bad agents. “Bad agents don’t return your calls promptly, don’t shop your manuscripts around, have an irritating reputation with publishing houses, which consequently reflects on you, and basically can damage your career,” Yardley said. “Better off without.”

So, how can you keep this from happening to you?

Along with researching the agent extensively, develop a list of qualities that you are looking for in an agent. Writer Karen Brichoux shared her “wish” list with me, and I suggest each writer should have a similar list.

• An agent with an established, recognizable agency

• An agent who likes my writing style and voice

• An agent who allows me to work in my own way

• An agent who likes my ideas

• An agent who gives some editorial advice but, for the most part, concentrates on selling the manuscript

• An agent who is capable of getting the best deal

• An agent who is open and honest, and who discusses the details of submission--who makes plans with me, not for me

• An agent who shakes and rattles publishers’ cages, and who can sell ideas and new voices

• An agent who is excited about my work but also has his/her feet firmly on the ground

• An agent who will sell my manuscript right away or has ideas for how to sell and market the manuscript as opposed to an agent who goes through the motions, sending the manuscript to the same places he/she sends every manuscript--basically duplicating what I could do without an agent

• An agent who exudes confidence, joie de vivre, likes animals, has curiosity, and who will be something of a friend as well as a business partner

• An agent who will be a partner rather than someone who lords it over me

• An agent who will make logical criticisms of my work rather than using critiques as a way to make me feel like a lousy writer or as a way to blame me for a lack of sales--she/he is not a bully or a blame-shifter

• An agent who is careful and detail oriented

• An agent who is ethical and honest in all of his/her business dealings

• An agent with ties to the publishing industry

• An agent with good ideas about marketing, one who will take risks, but not at my expense

• An agent who is interested in forming a long-term relationship over the course of a career

• An agent who is young enough to last throughout a career

• An agent who will keep me updated automatically; who won’t make me beg for an update

• An agent who is professional and business-like but who isn’t frightening to talk to; doesn’t make me feel like I am wasting his/her time.

• An agent who is open and honest with praise and with criticisms--someone who doesn’t just tell me what’s wrong with the book when he/she reads it

• An agent who loves reading and imagination, who has an active brain not deadened by TV and who enjoys the journey as much as the plot line

• An agent who carbon copies all correspondence concerning my book; who understands that this is my career and that it is important to me to know what is happening on every level

Brichoux said her most important criteria, however, was an agent she could respect. “It is possible to have an agent who does everything right but somehow manages to convince you that he or she is a dim star in the universe, might do something shady if she or he had the opportunity, and who basically gives you the impression that she or he never thinks very deeply about anything, but accepts the general, popular consensus without question. Every person has buttons which when pushed make them respect or disrespect someone. I would like an agent who doesn’t push my disrespect buttons.”

“At the top of my list is an agent who is ethical and professional,” Jerri Corgiat adds. “The biggest thing I learned from that [bad] experience was to listen to your innards—if you have doubts about someone, don’t go for it without very, very careful investigation. My lesson was easy and brief compared to some horror stories I’ve heard, and I’m grateful I got to learn it quickly.”

Thrillerfest Summary

Okay, I am going offline until Friday, on vacation, so I wanted to summarize Thrillerfest, and I'm sure I'll forget something, so feel free to ask questions.

John Lescroat
One of the "writing" tips that stuck with me the most was one I heard Sunday at the John Lescroat brunch. His best advice for writers was "just get to the end." In other words, quit obsessing about each page and each word and finish the book, then go back. He is a very funny man, very open and honest, and he showed a very human side when he thanked his wife and got a little emotional.

Clive Cussler
Dr. Cussler spoke during his award at the banquet, and he is funny, quick-witted and he told some great stories. The best ones were those he told about trying to sign his books when he saw people reading them, and their responses. Most of them didn't believe him. It reminded me of the time I went into Albertson's and I asked to sign their stock. The guy asked me how he was supposed to know that was me, and I was thinking, "What, is there a crime spree of people signing other people's books? Is this a big problem?" Cussler is JUST as sharp as ever, and what a thrill to see him in person and hear him speak.

Gayle Lynds
Gayle did a great workshop on the eight points of writing a thriller (I'm sure my wording is off, but it was something like that), and I'm hoping someone took notes. If you did, let me know, and I'll post it. Gayle is very sweet and open, and she did a great job with all of her duties.

David Morrell
When you consider that this man CREATED Rambo, you are pretty awestruck, and then you figure out just how cool he really is. I'm really sorry, David. Next time, I will wait until you are through chewing your vegetables before I try to take a picture.

CJ Lyons
CJ was this year's chair, and she did an AWESOME job. I am so impressed. She deserves a round of cyber-applause for all she did. Everything was great, and what fun! It was informative, entertaining, and uplifting

James Born
I attended a workshop put on by Born, who is a Florida police officer with all kinds of credentials (SWAT, DEA, etc.) and he is also an author and damned funny. We got to look at real guns, and hear the big mistakes writers make in books, and how NOT to make them. I also admitted to Tess Gerritsen that the way I avoid making mistakes about gun and ammo is by being vague. And now I'm sure that those words will come back to haunt me, but I want you ALL to know that I held a Glock. Yes, I did. No, it did not have bullets. They are not THAT dumb.

I was SO impressed with SO many authors, I bought way more books than I could really afford, and I can't wait for next year.

The only downside, as far as I can see, was the price of everything at the Arizona Biltmore. Water was $6. "Good, God, don't open that!" Water? Please. Alcoholic drinks were horribly high priced. A Diet Pepsi (like Bill Gates, Pepsi is trying to take over the world. You cannot FORCE us to like Pepsi, Pepsi People!) was $4.25 for a 20 oz. bottle. The bills were pretty messed up, and by the end of the trip I would have had to sell one of my children, had they been with me, to get a cab ride to the airport. Do rich people think that to prove you are rich you must pay more money for things? Pepsi is Pepsi. Paying $4.25 for it does not make it Diet Coke. (Disclaimer: I do not work for Diet Coke, but I'm pretty irked with the Pepsi people and their attempt to convert the world. I think they are taking lessons from the Mormons.)

Last set of pictures

John Lescroat and the Killerettes perform at the Awards Dinner. The Killerettes are AKA Alexa Sokoloff, Heather Graham, and Harley Jane Kozak.



The adorable and young (yet apparently, extremely talented) Marcus Sakey, author of the upcoming (highly raved about) debut THE BLADE ITSELF, learns all about guns. Be still my old heart.



Lee Goldberg on a panel. Lee is still taking slack because of a question his daughter had for RL Stine, at the luncheon. Come on, it was a GOOD question. How can tears run down a mermaid's face if she is locked in an aquarium? Lee swears the question was his daughter's and she backed him up.




Jim Born and Robin Burcell, after Jim's presentation.



Kayla Perrin and Laura Caldwell after one of the panels. (Thanks to Jeff Abbott for telling me who it was. I remembered her face, but I must be getting old, because I could NOT remember her name.)



Heather Graham and moi at the Awards Banquet.



The lovely Erica Spindler on her panel.



Debra Webb, Suzanne Barr and Moi. These ladies were AWESOME and so much fun.



Deborah LeBlanc and Heather Graham.



Look at Deborah LeBlanc! (She is going to kill me for this, I promise you.)



Clive Cussler accepts his award at the banquet. He was so charming, and funny!



Bob and Eileen Hutton. Eileen is the co-owner of Brilliance Audio.



Brad Meltzer doing his Mr. Magoo impression.



The ladies in black.



The Arizona Biltmore.

I'm entirely disappointed I didn't get more "blackmail" type photos. But that would have required me going places I didn't exactly want to go--ya know?

Thrillerfest Winners

Okay, I'm now in Burbank, attending a dance competition with my daughter. This is after a horrific four hours in the Phoenix airport. No thanks. Can I NOT do that again?

I wanted to post the winners of the first annual Thrillers. Since I couldn't remember them all, and didn't want to strain my brain looking at the program, I stole them from the BookBitch site! Thanks, Stacy! FYI, she's not a bitch at all. Quite lovely, really.
The winners of the first ever THRILLER Awards:

Best Screenplay - CACHE (Hidden), screenplay by Michael Haneke

Best First Novel - IMPROBABLE by Adam Fawer (William Morrow)

Best Paperback Original - PRIDE RUNS DEEP by R. Cameron Cooke (Jove)

Best Novel - THE PATRIOT'S CLUB by Christopher Reich (Delacorte Press)

As previously announced, the first ThrillerMaster Award went to Clive Cussler

Thrillerfest Roundup

Today is the final day of Thrillerfest, and although many have already departed, we are getting ready for the final brunch and interview with John Lescroat (Pronounced Le SQUAW--kinda).

Everybody is pretty weary, especially after the late night at the awards banquet, but it was a great time. The award is pretty cool looking, and the winners were really excited. Right about now I can't tell you who they are because I can barely remember my name. In fact, I was on the "Hair of the Dog" panel this morning and I can tell you that I am not the only author who can't remember their own name, let alone anybody else's, so I shall be blogging more about this tomorrow.

I'm about to get on a plane for California, so the loading up of more pictures will have to wait, but I promise they are coming.

For now, I will sign off with the cliched line, "And a great time was had by all."

More Pictures from Thrillerfest

Tess Gerritsen with Irish author Pat Mullan.


Debra Webb, Allison Brennan, Toni McGee-Causey, and Robert Gregory Browne. All St. Martin's authors except Allison. Allison, what are you doing in that picture, huh? JUST because you hit the New York Times extended list with your first book does NOT mean you can be in every picture! (Kidding here. I made Allison pose in the picture.)



ReadersRoom's own Sarie Morrell, uber-publicist and damn cute, too!


Sandra Brown and her agent, Maria Carvainis. I promised Maria I would try to get another picture when she had her eyes open.


MJ Rose and Toni McGee-Causey. MJ is starting to regret they let me come to Thrillerfest, because I keep snapping pictures.


Jeff Anderson, who hails from Salt Lake City, Utah, and Reviewer Larry Gandle. Jeff is up for a Thriller award for his novel Sleeper Cell.


Author James Rollins, who posed during the signing of the anthology, THRILLER. He looked a little pained. He might have thought I was stalking him. Not sure.


Heather Graham and CJ Lyons. CJ is the chair of this year's Thrillerfest, and has done an awesome job.


Ali Karim, book reviewer from England and great supporter of thrillers!


Thrillerfest co-founder Gayle Lynds at the signing of THRILLER.


Thrillerfest co-founder David Morrell, shortly after he nearly choked to death because I asked him to pose while he was eating raw vegetables. Note to Rambo: Way to kill famous author--kill him with raw vegetables. It is entirely possible I will be banned from the conference after this.


Ali, Larry, and Elaine, who is doing her impression of a woman smoking through a hole in her head. Either that, or trying to light her hair on fire. No, we are not in the bar. Writers don't drink!


Author Shane Gericke and Debra Webb. NO, I told you, we are NOT in the bar. Okay, fine, we're in the bar.

Thursday Afternoon at Thrillerfest

The highlight of Thursday had to be the luncheon and interview with R.L. Stine. Very funny man, and he said he thinks things that are SCARY are funny. He must like Paris Hilton's new single. He also noted that someone once called him the literary training bra for Stephen King.

Sandra Brown and Heather Graham sat down at our luncheon table, and we had a great discussion. I found it a little amusing considering some "up-and-coming" authors were actually chasing established authors and trying to sit with them. My friend Deborah LeBlanc said, "Sandra Brown and Heather Graham just sat down at our table!" Yup.

On another note, I've had some great discussions with Sarie Morrell, who is an incredible publicist (she reps her dad, David Morrell, MJ Rose, Gayle Lynds, David Dun and more). She also does a great column for ReadersRoom.com, Beyond the Spine, that you have to check out if you're looking to publicize your book.

More pictures will follow... I hope.

Thrillerfest Thursday

Lee Child and Elaine Flinn chat in the hotel bar.



Jeffrey Deaver chats with fans. That's him in the back.



Yesterday was a busy day, and I'm finally getting some pictures uploaded. Unfortunately, I don't have a photo program on my laptop, so there are a few photographs I cannot rotate, and they are sideways. If anyone knows if Blogger can do this, please send me an email and let me know.

On Thursday, Gayle Lynds gave a great panel on writing a thriller, and she had some excellent suggestions for those who are working in this genre (which is almost everyone HERE). I also attended a seminar by MJ Rose, David J. Montgomery (a reviewer) and Sarie Morrell, a very talented publicist, about buzzing your book. They were frank and honest about the difficulties of marketing a book, and the reality that you MUST market or you will fizzle out and die. It's a hard aspect, I think, for all writers.

The opening reception was last night, and Jim Fusilli interviewed Doug Preston, which was fascinating.

Then the authors of the Thriller book autographed copies, and people mingled. Attendees included Sandra Brown, Gayle Lynds, David Morrell, MJ Rose, Heather Graham, Erica Spindler, Tess Gerritsen, and of course a lot more. I spent some time taking pictures so you could check it out.

Unfortunately, Blogger keeps EATING my photographs, and I'm getting a little FRUSTRATED! I have to jet out to work the registration desk, so I'm just going to publish the promised photos of Jeffrey Deaver and Lee Child, and you'll get the rest a little later on. Blame Blogger. In fact, send them hatemail.

Okay, don't do that.

Wednesday Night at Thrillerfest

I arrived in Phoenix around 2:30 p.m., ready to participate in my first big writer's conference. I've been to several small local ones, but never one of the magnitude of Thrillerfest, and I found out I was pretty nervous. I also found out it's hot here. Okay, kidding. I knew it was hot. But let me say for the record that it's really hot. REALLY, really hot. I took the shuttle to the Arizona Biltmore, which is air-conditioned, like everything else down here, and checked into my room.

Then I sat down and did a little bit of writing, since no one I knew was getting in until later. Around seven, I went down to the restaurant to meet a group of people who had arranged to meet for dinner. Then I passed out when I read the prices on the dinner menu, but hey, I was revived. I had to be, to pay my $42 for a salad. (It's entirely possible I inflated the prices SLIGHTLY). While we were sitting there, I noted that I recognized some faces.

It's an interesting thing about big name writers. You only see their pictures here and there, but usually you don't see them on television screens, or billboards, or in magazines (unless it's Publisher's Weekly). But I recognized faces nonetheless. Gayle Lynds and MJ Rose were sitting together at the table behind us. I got to chat with both Gayle and MJ (both are lovely and friendly, and Gayle is very tall). I sat next to two unpublished writers and one big fan (Hi, MommyKim!) and across from Debra Webb, who is published with Harlequin, and just sold to St. Martin's. Debra is the FIRST person I've actually met (who isn't horribly famous) who shares my editor, so we had lots to chat about. She's from Alabama, and has a great accent, which makes just about everything sound lyrical, including "Where's the baaathrum?"

After dinner we went to the bar (hey, we're writers) and lo and behold, in walks Jeffrey Deaver. No, I am not lying here. He's not actually attending Thrillerfest, but just happened to be in town on tour and is either staying here or dropped by. I did not grill him on exactly which one it was, because I was too busy thinking "Jeffrey Deaver--You just shook Jeffrey Deaver's hand."

One of the aspiring writers who joined our group, Mark, was shaking, because he's read every book Jeffrey Deaver has ever written. He could barely get words out. I had no problem with that. (NO, I did not grill him about where he was staying! I am not stalking him. I do NOT have a cabin, and I will not make him change that scene where... Uh, kidding.)

Also sitting with us for a minute was Lee Child, which was really cool. He's very nice and has a "YOUR-peen" accent (as Deb said. Remember, she's from Alabama), which makes us American ladies swoon.

Another male writer--who shall remain unnamed--got a little peeved that we weren't fawning over him and made a few rude comments. One of the reasons he shall remain unnamed is because I can't remember his name. But I'm bad with names. It has nothing to do with the fact he's not Lee Child.

I also met Elaine Flinn and Jeffrey Anderson (who happens to be from Salt Lake City, and shares the same agent as my friend Karin Tabke).

Towards the end of the night, Debra and I started asking "Who's that. Do we need to know him/her? Can you introduce us?" That's when we figured it was time for bed.

Now, I am getting into the shower, and off to DAY TWO of Thrillerfest. Stay tuned.

FYI, I have photographic PROOF that Jeffrey Deaver and Lee Child were in the bar with us, and will post it later today.